handmade.network » Forums » 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
Procedural
30 posts
#12770 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
1 week, 6 days ago

Actually wait, I forgot @vurtun send me a link yesterday: https://gist.github.com/vurtun/82f65d6f88127d2e779949e61c2283e4

1 div and 3 muls vs 7 muls,

They are as fast or maybe slightly faster than quaternions, please stop answering that made up by Ginger Bill issue, there are real problems with Gibbs vectors to solve than this.
mmozeiko
Mārtiņš Možeiko
1437 posts
1 project
#12771 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
1 week, 6 days ago Edited by Mārtiņš Možeiko on Aug. 4, 2017, 7:28 p.m.

Benchmark for transforming a lot of vectors against the same quaternion or gibbs rotation: https://gist.github.com/mmozeiko/3d415e0e4783e7ab35b8a2eb1fcaec40

GCC 7.1.0 with "-ffast-math -O3":
1
2
quats = 108.15msec
gibbs = 137.24msec

MSVC2017 with "/fp:fast /Ox /Ot":
1
2
quats = 240.48msec
gibbs = 257.08msec

Using unique q/g per every vector trasnformation (so q and g are arrays with COUNT elements) doesn't change the timings much.
Procedural
30 posts
#12772 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
1 week, 6 days ago

Try removing `if (unlikely(dot==1.0f)) return (v3){0,0,0}; /* a == b */`
mmozeiko
Mārtiņš Možeiko
1437 posts
1 project
#12773 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
1 week, 6 days ago Edited by Mārtiņš Možeiko on Aug. 4, 2017, 8:28 p.m.

GCC:
1
2
quats = 107.97msec
gibbs = 118.78msec

MSVC:
1
2
quats = 240.22msec
gibbs = 222.37msec

MSVC shows worse numbers than GCC here because it decides to not inline qrot/grot functions. If I force inlining with " /Dinline=__forceinline /fp:fast /Ox /Ot" the results are:
1
2
quats = 114.57msec
gibbs = 158.63msec
Procedural
30 posts
#12775 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
1 week, 5 days ago Edited by on Aug. 4, 2017, 11:56 p.m.

Yeah, seeing same results on MSVC2017,

with "/fp:fast /Ox /Ot":

1
2
quats = 252.16msec
gibbs = 207.01msec


with "/Dinline=__forceinline /fp:fast /Ox /Ot":

1
2
quats = 122.35msec
gibbs = 205.53msec


with "/Dinline=__forceinline /fp:fast /Ox /Ot /arch:AVX2":

1
2
quats = 94.28msec
gibbs = 177.75msec
Procedural
30 posts
#12776 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
1 week, 5 days ago

mmozeiko, what's the license of your perf test code? Can I add it to my repo under public domain?
mmozeiko
Mārtiņš Možeiko
1437 posts
1 project
#12777 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
1 week, 5 days ago

Yes you can, I don't mind. WTFPL license :)
Procedural
30 posts
#12785 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
1 week, 5 days ago Edited by on Aug. 5, 2017, 8:25 a.m.

The real deal breaker for me is interpolation: while Gibbs vectors can interpolate just like quaternions, the error gets progressively worse as angle between the interpolated vectors approaches 180°.

For 45° the error is just 1°, from 45° to 90° the maximum error is 8°, from 90° to 135° is where it starts to break: 35° difference, from 135° to 180° it just becomes unusable. The error resembles an exponential curve or a parabola or something like that, I guess in theory one can find a way to weight 0.0 to 1.0 lerp's `t` values.

The code from the first post is updated.

I also added an example of compressing and restoring quaternions from Gibbs vectors: the orientation stays the same, but for a >180° quaternion Gibbs vector flips the axis and rotates to the same place from the opposite direction so that its angle stays under 180° :) If you don't care from which direction rotation happened and just want to rotate points to the same position, this can give you the same result compressed to 3 values.
Procedural
30 posts
#12786 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
1 week, 5 days ago

mmozeiko, thank you! I mentioned you in repo's commit.
Procedural
30 posts
#12787 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
1 week, 5 days ago

Here I plotted 9 correct weight values for Gibbs vector to interpolate from 0° to 180° exactly like quaternion, tried to fit a parabola between them but failed, maybe someone smarter than me will figure it out eventually :)

cmuratori
Casey Muratori
802 posts
1 project

Casey Muratori is a programmer at Molly Rocket on the game 1935 and is the host of the educational programming series Handmade Hero.

#12827 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
5 days, 16 hours ago

Generally speaking, you do not want to use the exponential map for anything that isn't a differential rotation. It is properly the "angular velocity" vector, and behaves as it should for the operations one would want to perform there, so it makes some sense to use it thusly.

I do not know of any other scenario where you would prefer it over quaternions. Quaternions are better at just about everything, including interpolation, blending, joint behavior, orientation, and rotation.

Although I infer that the goal of the OP was to gain computation/space efficiency going from 4 parameters to 3, but I would point out that it is actually not the case that the fourth parameter of a quaternion is redundant. It actually encodes important information, which is where in the 720 degree angle space you are. When you go from [x,y,z,w] to [x/w,y/w,z/w], not only have you destroyed the stability of the representation by introducing an unnecessary divide, but you have also destroyed knowledge of the proper signs. [-x,-y,-z,w] and [x,y,z,-w] both map to [-x/w,-y/w,-z/w], and there's no way to ever get back.

Since most orientations in games encode the offset from parent space of a joint, 720 degrees is actually the right number of degrees because it prevents angles near 360 from appearing similar, when in fact they are not (since the organic joints we care about in games cannot "rotate through 360 degrees").

Even if somehow you found that you could eek out a small performance win with Gibbs vectors due to the reduced parameter space, I would certainly not be willing to trade all the benefits of quaternions away for it. I think people often forget that quaternions encode a larger space of rotations than matrices or the exponential map, and contrary to perhaps the prevailing wisdom, it is valuable that they do so, even if you're not a theoretical physicist :P

- Casey
Procedural
30 posts
#12829 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
5 days, 11 hours ago

cmuratori
When you go from [x,y,z,w] to [x/w,y/w,z/w], not only have you destroyed the stability of the representation by introducing an unnecessary divide,


The only difference between a Gibbs vector and a quaternion is divide, if divide is unnecessary then it would become just a regular quaternion, isn't it? :)

Also, "destroyed" is a strong word to apply here, it's as if saying a plane crashes every time it lands on the runway, technically it's true, realistically this crash is controlled and not going to fully "destroy" a plane. If you're in a certain safe zone of operations, you're not going to "destroy" Gibbs vector stability.

cmuratori
but you have also destroyed knowledge of the proper signs. [-x,-y,-z,w] and [x,y,z,-w] both map to [-x/w,-y/w,-z/w], and there's no way to ever get back.


Depends on what you mean by getting back, [-x,-y,-z,w] and [x,y,z,-w] result in the same position in 3D, if you don't care from which direction rotation should happen and just want to point a vector in a specific direction, then the job can be done with both quaternion and Gibbs vector.

The code from the first post is updated with direction example.
ratchetfreak
291 posts
#12830 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
5 days, 9 hours ago

Procedural
cmuratori
When you go from [x,y,z,w] to [x/w,y/w,z/w], not only have you destroyed the stability of the representation by introducing an unnecessary divide,


The only difference between a Gibbs vector and a quaternion is divide, if divide is unnecessary then it would become just a regular quaternion, isn't it? :)

Also, "destroyed" is a strong word to apply here, it's as if saying a plane crashes every time it lands on the runway, technically it's true, realistically this crash is controlled and not going to fully "destroy" a plane. If you're in a certain safe zone of operations, you're not going to "destroy" Gibbs vector stability.

cmuratori
but you have also destroyed knowledge of the proper signs. [-x,-y,-z,w] and [x,y,z,-w] both map to [-x/w,-y/w,-z/w], and there's no way to ever get back.


Depends on what you mean by getting back, [-x,-y,-z,w] and [x,y,z,-w] result in the same position in 3D, if you don't care from which direction rotation should happen and just want to point a vector in a specific direction, then the job can be done with both quaternion and Gibbs vector.

The code from the first post is updated with direction example.


his point that more often than not you do care about the direction of rotation. If you set the quaternions up properly from the start you don't ever need to test the sign of dot(q1, q2) the 2 quaternions will just be correct from the get go.
Procedural
30 posts
#12831 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
5 days, 7 hours ago

ratchetfreak
his point that more often than not you do care about the direction of rotation. If you set the quaternions up properly from the start you don't ever need to test the sign of dot(q1, q2) the 2 quaternions will just be correct from the get go.

Not sure what you mean...
Procedural
30 posts
#12832 3D rotations with 3D Gibbs vectors in place of 4D quaternions
5 days, 7 hours ago Edited by on Aug. 12, 2017, 4:02 p.m.

ratchetfreak, I can only guess you meant that you need to check dot(g1, g2) if the angle between the Gibbs vector approaches 180°? I already said Gibbs vector interpolation is currently a real deal breaker (while an immediate rotation is as correct as quaternion one), but one can find the right weights for an exponential-like curve I posted in the screenshot above, if you weight them right you'll be able to interpolate correctly, and given 181° rotation Gibbs vector wraps to 179° in the other direction, any interpolation will always be in between 180°...